‘Barry’ Series Finale, Ending Explained — Sarah Goldberg Interview

TVLINE | What was your reaction when you first read the finale script? Did Bill Hader give you any kind of indication where this was going?
Yeah, I had some knowledge of where we were going. But the actual details of the finale, Bill kept pretty close for most of the season, I think partly because they hadn’t finished it and partly because maybe we’d all get too excited, and I do have a bad history of spoilers. I didn’t know early because I cannot be trusted. [Laughs] The less time I had to keep secrets, the better for everyone.

But when I read the script, it was full of surprises for me. After all the crazy dramatic highs that Sally has in this season, to end her story so simply, I thought, was so poetic and beautiful. When I saw it on the page, I did have a moment of, like, “Huh, that’s it? She’s just riding in the car with flowers on the passenger seat?” And then when it came to shooting it, it was just so beautiful. Such a beautiful quiet moment after all the chaos. And I kind of love that here was this actress who came to L.A. wanting an Oscar and wanting all these accolades and wanting to be a star, and actually, she’s just got this bouquet of s–tty supermarket flowers, and it’s enough, you know? She’s actually kind of content. It may as well be an Oscar. I thought that was lovely.

TVLINE | Yes, she gets that applause at the end and the flowers, and we know that she’s always dreamed of being a big actress. This isn’t the happy ending she wanted, but this is close enough for her, you’re saying?
This is like something adjacent to a happy ending. In many ways, in terms of her personal growth, it’s like a happier ending. Because can you imagine if she actually did become a huge star? What a nightmare she’d be? She’s a better person because of it.

TVLINE | Yes, we got an indication of that already when she had her own TV show.
Right, exactly. Things were not headed in the right direction. What’s nice is we’re left with a little bit of the old duality of Sally, which is that she’s always been someone with artistic integrity and who really wants to make art, and yet also is riddled with demons and narcissism and wants to be the star and needs external validation like oxygen. So I love that we left you with both pieces a little bit, which is: She has this moment on stage. She cares about her students. She cares about the show going well for their sake, and she has the quiet moment after in the car where there’s the satisfaction and the flowers and all that, and there is a real calm for her. However, when her son is saying goodbye to her and he says, “I love you,” she doesn’t say “I love you” back. She asks for his approval. She’s like, “It was good, wasn’t it?” So we’ve left a tiny piece of the old Sally there, and she’s still using her son the way she used to use Barry and needs this little pick-me-up and to know she was good enough. So there’s just a beauty and a tragedy in that as well.

TVLINE | At the end, a teacher asks Sally out on a date, and she gives him a very firm “no.” Has she closed the door on any kind of romance, or even companionship at this point?
I think so, and I think it’s a relief. She’s been through a series of abusive relationships. She was in a cycle with that. And I really enjoyed that moment, and I was glad they included it. I also liked the way she says “no.” There’s something light and friendly about it. It’s not costing her anything, and yet it is very clear. I thought it was a nice touch for her story, that that chapter is closing. You know, I was thinking about it earlier, and I think that sadly, she’s never really been in a loving relationship. With Barry, that wasn’t love. It was like they sort of both saw what they wanted to see, and eventually when they saw through that, then it was more about survival. So I feel like she had no model. But she does have a nice dynamic with her son. She’s maybe not a good mother at this point, but maybe she’s a good enough mother. Maybe that’s the focus of her life now, her students and her kid and putting on Our Town… there’s contentment to the simplicity. That was kind of nice.

TVLINE | Yeah, that final shot of her driving is more content than we’ve ever seen her. I mean, she’s always been striving and feeling incomplete.
Yeah, and I think that she crosses a threshold in the scene with John when they’re being held captive. In that moment, I think she really believes they’re both going to die. So what follows is the only scene, possibly, in the entire series where we see Sally be completely honest, and drop all performance. She’s someone who’s always been performing, and it all drops, and she has these honest realizations in real time in front of her child. I think after that point, something changes in her that never goes back, in a good way. That is when she’s trying to get Barry to do the right thing, and I think that there’s a quiet in her that sets in because that particular side has gone a bit dormant. It took a gun to her head, literally, for it to happen. But good for her, she got there!

I’ve always said I never wanted Sally to be the moral barometer of the show by virtue of being the only female series regular. I was really adamant about that. I wanted to keep her as complex and morally bankrupt as the male characters. That was hard over the years. It was hard to fight for at times. I always felt like Bill and Alec [Berg] were on my side about it. But the world at large doesn’t love a morally bankrupt, narcissistic woman. We’ll accept it from the male characters, but we won’t accept it from our female characters, and also a female character that’s not trading in any kind of sexual currency. They might accept the messy woman if she’s also f–kable. But with Sally, that was not a currency we used to make her palatable. We never tried to make her palatable. We just tried to make her real. I’ve always said that with Sally, you don’t have to like her, you just have to know her. And I felt like I knew her. So with the ending, I didn’t want to pander to her becoming good or her becoming maternal. I didn’t want a bow on it. So I’m hoping what we’ve done is something complex. She has evolved. She is a better person. She is a better mother. But has she got it all figured out? And is it a hundred percent happy ending? No.

TVLINE | Barry ends up getting shot dead by Gene, just as he’s about to turn himself in. Did he just wait too long to try to redeem himself?
I think there’s a real bleak message somewhere in there that I haven’t fully digested. I mean, he finally pivots and understands he needs to do the right thing. The thesis of the show was like: Am I a good person? Ultimately, there was something in Barry that was good-natured. It’s what made him an interesting character, that somebody who’s seemingly good-natured could behave so abysmally. But the truth is: He’s a bad person. At every juncture, at every fork in the road that he has over the four seasons to do the right thing, he chooses the selfish thing. He chooses self-preservation. And because of that, the death toll accumulates. When you think all way back to Chris getting shot in Season 1, it’s devastating. So I think he finally has the epiphany of, “Oh, I need to do the right thing,” and I think it’s genuine. But yeah, he’s shot dead before that’s allowed to happen. There’s something very bleak and beautiful about that.

TVLINE | But he did sort of get what he wanted, right? Because all he wanted was for his son to be able to think of him as a good person. Out in the world, he’s being portrayed as a hero.
Yeah, that’s so true and very astute, and I hadn’t thought about it that way. Because obviously, he’s shot dead, so you think, “Oh, you know, he got his comeuppance.” But actually, you’re absolutely right. It’s far more twisted. He’s really does get what he wants. He kind of wins the game. Not only does his son see him as a hero… well, we don’t know. But the world sees him as a hero. Yeah. It’s so bleak.

TVLINE | What was Sally’s reaction to Barry’s death, do you think? Because we didn’t actually get to see that. I have to think a part of her was relieved in a way.
I almost get sad when there are questions around what’s off-screen. Because I’m like, “Damn, I wish we could shoot that!” But yeah, I think that relief was probably in the mix. I think there’s a world where she would have been happier to see him confess and be punished. My big question for the [writers] was: What does she do when Cousineau goes down for the crimes? Like, does she step in and speak up on his behalf? I think we all came to the conclusion that she tried, but at the time, she was mentally unstable and she wasn’t taken seriously. Also, her priority would have become about John and making sure he wasn’t left parentless if she was to go to prison for the murder she committed. I think that when Sally leaves Barry in the motel, she’s committed to never seeing him again. I think that is the end for her. So him being dead, I think, probably just finalizes that. And maybe she’s relieved as well that he can’t influence John in any way. I think him dying is probably the end of an ugly chapter for her. I’m sure there’s some sadness mixed in, too, but mostly I would say it was relief.

TVLINE | Sally’s son John ends up watching the movie based on Barry’s life, and it’s so far from the truth as we know it. Did Sally not want him to see it? Has she seen it herself, do you think?
I think she definitely has not allowed him to see it, and that’s why he’s off on a sleepover with the contraband. I think she tried to protect him from it. I would imagine Sally has seen it. I think the curiosity would have got the better of her. Maybe there was a conversation like, “You can see it when you’re 18.” Jaeden [Martell] did such a good job in that role, and I love his response to the film. He has such a ambiguous look on his face where there’s a relief to the fact that this is the version of his father that the world is digesting, and he can hold his head up in the world that his dad’s a hero, and that he knows it’s not true. Because he remembers what Sally said and he remembers how it went in the shootout.

So it’s slightly twisted, because: Is he like his parents, then? You know, he got two sets of bad DNA. He turned out all right. He seems like a good kid. And yet in this moment, he’s going to maybe choose the lie because the lie is easier. But I feel like they both know the truth, and they live with the truth in the silence in their dinners. I feel like also Sally has definitely not signed them up for family therapy. I don’t know that they’ve dealt with their collective family trauma. I don’t think they’re there yet. So I think the film is like a relief for him, but it comes at such a high price because then what are you going to do? Sustain a lie? Obviously, Sally knows it’s all bulls–t.

But the thing that probably upset Sally the most in the movie was Barry plays Macbeth, and she cheers him on. She played Macbeth!

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