DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I’m Dave Davies. Major League Baseball resumes today after an all-star break that showcased continuing changes in the national pastime. Tuesday’s All-Star game featured a robotic umpire that players could appeal to when they thought the man in blue behind the plate missed a call. And the game’s 6-6 tie was decided by a first-ever home run swing-off in which three players from each side swatted pitches thrown by a batting practice coach into the seats. The National League prevailed on a powerful performance by the Phillies’ Kyle Schwarber. But many of the game’s long-standing traditions endure – managers arguing with umpires, pitchers brushing back hitters, and players of average talent excelling with hustle and mental toughness.
Today, we’re going to tap our archive of interviews with baseball players and managers who’ve given us some memorable insights into the game. We begin with Jamie Moyer, who at age 49 became the oldest pitcher ever to record a win in the Majors. Never blessed with a blazing fastball. He pitched for 25 seasons and was a more effective pitcher in his 40s than in his 20s, because he used precise location and strategic thinking to get batters out – in part with the help of a sports psychologist. I spoke to Moyer in 2013 when his memoir, “Just Tell Me I Can’t, ” was published. We talked about the mental and emotional side of pitching.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
DAVIES: Do you think hitters sense doubt in a pitcher?
JAMIE MOYER: Oh, yeah. Body language or your posture on the mound, the way you act and react in situations – hitters feed off of that. And you could tell on days when guys are showing bad body language on the mound, you know. It would almost be like the hitters were running up to home plate to hit. But you could also flip that, too. As a pitcher, when things were going really well, you could read hitters if – say you threw a pitch, and a guy took the pitch, and it was a called strike, and you got a reaction, like, you know, his shoulders went down or he complained to the umpire. All of a sudden, now, you know, it was like, hey, that wasn’t a strike. Now they’ve become distracted with what was going on. So now, you know, for me to be able to read that – and now I’m ahead in the count, maybe now the next pitch doesn’t have to be a strike. But if I can make it look like a strike as it’s approaching the plate, but when it gets to the plate, it’s not a strike and I get them to offer at it, again they’re swinging at something that they didn’t really want to swing at or they weren’t comfortable swinging at.
DAVIES: And that’s being aggressive. You’re taking…
MOYER: And – yes.
DAVIES: …This hitter out of his focus and…
MOYER: Exactly.
DAVIES: …Reacting to what you’re doing. Now, you say that a pitcher can have bad posture, which will indicate that he’s frustrated. What’s the posture that you want to never show on the mount? And then what’s the posture you do want to show?
MOYER: The posture that you never want to show for me is to throw a pitch, and, you know, kind of your body gets a little droopy. You’re whining. You know, you just – everything kind of – your body kind of crumbles. And you know, you catch the ball and you snap at the ball. You know, you’re glaring at the umpire. You’re whining to the umpire. And that’s very visible from, you know, 60 feet away. The hitter sees that. Your teammates see that. The fans see that. The broadcasters see that. You know, everybody sees that.
But, you know, to me, you want to show absolutely nothing. You want to have strong eyes. You want to be staring at your target, and you’re really showing no emotion. And you want to show that, you know, I’m in control here. You want to get the ball back. You want to create a good tempo between pitches. You don’t want to lollygag around and kick the dirt and, you know, mosey around, like, you know, this is a drudgery. You want to get the ball. You want to get back up on the mound, take your sign and make your next pitch.
DAVIES: You know, you pitched later in your career here in Philadelphia, so a lot of us saw a lot of Jamie Moyer. And I remember your expression on the mound. You could never tell what you were thinking.
MOYER: And that’s ideal. And, you know, those who watched the Phillies play – you watch Chase Utley hit. He shows no emotion at home plate. And that’s exactly – as a pitcher, that’s exactly what I’m trying to do, as well. You don’t want to give the hitter anything to feed off of.
DAVIES: I want to talk some more about keeping the mental edge as a pitcher and how you practiced that over the years. One of the things that you’ve said is that hitters had big egos, and you would use their egos against them – try and get them frustrated, break their concentration. Would you say things to hitters often, like, speak to them directly?
MOYER: There were a couple times back when David Justice was with Cleveland and I was pitching, and it was in the middle of the game. We were up a couple runs, and we were in a particular batch where it was just foul ball, foul ball, foul ball, foul ball. And we get to, like, nine, 10, 11 pitches, and I walked towards home plate to get another ball from the umpire. And I stopped, and I said, David – and he kind of looked at me, ’cause you usually don’t talk, you know, from pitcher to hitter too often. And he kind of looked up at me. I said, where do you want the pitch? And he kind of looked at me, like, what did you just say to me? And he said – he just kind of pointed, you know, out in front of him, like right down the middle. And I said, OK. And I turned around.
DAVIES: And he wanted a fastball, right? Yeah.
MOYER: Yeah, and he wanted a fastball. And now, you know – now, for me, the cat-and-mouse game begins. All right. Is he going to think I’m going to throw him a fastball? Is he going to take the pitch? Is he going to swing at it? Is it, you know – what’s going to happen? So I could never tell him I’m going to throw something and throw something else because I had it already set in my mind. So I threw a fastball. He hit a home run. Well, he started laughing around the bases. And, you know, I couldn’t fault the guy, you know?
So he goes back in the dugout. He starts telling his teammates. They were all laughing, blah, blah blah blah. And – but he was, you know, the bat was over. And like I said, I was starting to get a little tired, then. So I was like, all right. We’re done, you know. You’re out of here. It’s a solo home run. No big deal. We end up winning the game.
Next day, I see him, and he said, that’s crazy. I can’t believe you did that. And I said, well, you know – I kind of explained to him why I did it. And it’s funny. I’ve seen him now a number of times in the last couple of years, and he – every time I see him, we laugh about it. But, you know, I’ve done it a couple times in my career.
DAVIES: Well, hang on. Explain to us why you did it. I mean, you’re serving up a pitching hand…
MOYER: Well, I did it because, again, I was trying to break up that tension that he and I had created. And I was trying to get him off of what, you know – he was kind of really focused on, you know, getting a hit. And like you said, I just kept throwing pitch after pitch after pitch. Everything I threw, he fouled off. So I was to the point where it was like – again, I’m not going to say I gave up, but I wanted to try to beat him on the mental part of it, hoping that he would do something he didn’t want to do.
DAVIES: Lose his focus, yeah.
MOYER: But he stayed – right. Yeah. But he stayed on course, and he beat me at my own little game. So, again, I tried to pick and choose when I would do that but I did it a couple other times in my career, and, you know, I didn’t do it real often. bBut it was just one of those times where that tension was building and building and building.
DAVIES: Now, you’re a pitcher that relies on accuracy and on finesse and on mixing up pitches rather than speed. You don’t overpower…
MOYER: Changing timing. What I’m trying to do is I’m trying to affect timing ’cause that’s all hitting is, is timing.
DAVIES: Right. So the 79-mile-an-hour pitch followed by a 62-mile-an-hour pitch can be tricky.
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: Right. Or vice versa.
MOYER: Right. Right. Right. Especially if I can make them look the same out of my hand.
DAVIES: Right. But location is critical, which means that if you have an umpire that is as they say, pinching the strike zone, calling a narrower strike zone.
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: What I wanted to ask is – you know, it’s illegal in the game. You can argue a lot of things in the game. You’re not allowed to argue balls and strikes. You can be ejected for it.
MOYER: Yes, in today’s game, yes. You can, that’s the way it is.
DAVIES: But is there a way you can work an umpire from the mound?
MOYER: You can, you know. You can respectfully, you know, give him a little bit of a glare, or, you know, there have been times where I didn’t like the way the game was going as far as balls and strikes and I’d call my catcher out to the mound. And for no particular reason did I want to talk to my catcher. But if you stand out there long enough with the catcher, the umpire will come walking out. And usually while I was having a conversation with the catcher, when the umpire would walk out and he’d come out and say, hey, let’s go, you know. Let’s speed it up here. And I’d wait till the umpire got all the way to the mound and I would continue to talk to the catcher, but I was really talking to the umpire.
DAVIES: And saying what?
MOYER: And I’d be asking him about, you know, hey, where was that last pitch, or is my catcher blocking your pitches, or you know, are you having a tough day? Because there are a lot of times where I’d walk off the field and say, hey, bear with me. I’m having a tough day, you know, when I wasn’t throwing strikes or consistent strikes. So what I’m trying to – what I was really just trying to do was get the umpire to think about what he was calling and trying to do it in a respectful way. I don’t want to be demonstrative ’cause I do respect that he is – this is his job, too. And I don’t want to try to – I don’t – I’m not trying to create any animosity between myself and the umpire because the umpire can really be beneficial to me.
DAVIES: Right. So anybody on the stands or watching on television who looks at that encounter sees you talking to your catcher.
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: And so you’re not embarrassing the umpire. You’re not showing him up. You’re not yelling at him.
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: But he is hearing you make your case. Did you find it worked?
MOYER: At times it did. Here’s another one. Maybe we were in a key point of the game and my catcher would legitimately come out and say, hey, what do you want to do here? And I’d be like – I’d be in between thoughts. I’d be thinking about, well, maybe this pitch or maybe that pitch. That’s what I was thinking about. And I’d say to the catcher, what do you think? And he’d say, well, maybe a change-up here. Well, at that point, the umpire would be walking out to the mound. And he’d say, OK, boys. Let’s go, you know. Let’s get back at this. And I’d, you know – and I’d make sure he was close enough, and I’d say, OK, let’s go with the change-up. And I’d say it loud enough that the umpire could hear it.
Now, he would have time to think about it, and he’d be prepared for me throwing that change-up, and he usually knew where I was going to be throwing it. Now he was prepared and looking in the area that I was throwing that pitch. You know, maybe I get the benefit of the doubt and get the call because it’s – because we’re in a tight situation.
DAVIES: Jamie Moyer recorded in 2013. He pitched 25 years in the major leagues and was inducted into the Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame in 2015. Coming up life behind the plate. We explore the punishing job of a big-league catcher. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. And as Major League Baseball marks the midpoint of its season with the All-Star break, we’re listening to some of our favorite interviews with major league players and managers. Next up, Brad Ausmus, regarded as one of the best defensive catchers ever to play the game. He spent 18 seasons in the major leagues, mostly for the Houston Astros, and won three Gold Glove awards. In 2011, I asked him about the physical and mental demands of life behind the plate.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
DAVIES: As a catcher, your role is unique. You and the pitcher are busy on every play while seven other guys, although they will do tremendous things from time to time, are standing around. Tell us – describe, if you will, some of the physical demands of catching in the big leagues.
BRAD AUSMUS: Physically, it’s mainly getting in and out of a squat. You do it not only during the course of the game – which is actually the easier part – you do it in the bullpen. You do it in spring training. You do it during the warmups. You do it prior to the game. At times, I’ve tried to total up the number of squats I’ve gotten into over the course of a season, and, you know, you’d have to go a hundred and fifty squats a day for seven months and you’d come up with the number. So your legs take a toll, especially when you get down to the last two months of the season. In August and September, you start to feel your legs getting tired.
I remember walking up the stairs one season when I had a newborn, my second daughter, and I would walk halfway up the stairs to the landing, and I’d kind of have to rest because my legs were tired. So there is a physical demand, mostly on your legs.
DAVIES: One of the most important things a catcher does is to call the pitches that the pitcher is going to throw. I mean, people who watch the game know that between your legs, you’ll drop typically, I guess, one finger to signal a fastball and then two, three or four for various other pitches that the pitcher might throw the – you know, a curveball, a slider, a changeup. And when you see this working well, it’s interesting. You will see the pitcher get the ball back and then almost go into the windup immediately. And I’m thinking, for that to happen, the catcher must be making the decision on what pitch to call immediately, as soon as the last pitch is completed. Does it work that quickly? I mean, is that what you do?
AUSMUS: Basically, yes. That’s exactly what happens. A pitch is thrown, and as soon as you’ve thrown it back, there’s kind of a checklist that you go through, and it becomes more reflexive as you do it more and more. And a veteran catcher – a lot of the checklist he just glosses over ’cause he knows the answer to it. But you’re really going through a bunch of different things in your mind, including, what’s the score? What inning are we in? How many outs? What’s this hitter’s weaknesses? What is this pitcher’s strengths? Who’s on deck? How did we get this guy out last time? What pitches did he see? What pitch did we just throw? So, I mean, there’s about 10 to a dozen things that you kind of – a checklist you go through in your mind before you put that signal down.
DAVIES: Right. And then you can pick from four or five pitches that the pitcher throws, and it can be up or down or inside or outside. That’s a lot of options that you’ve got to get through in a hurry.
AUSMUS: It is, and you prepare for it. You know, it’s – that checklist you go through before every single pitch, but a lot of it happens beforehand. You know, we have pitcher and catcher meetings. On the teams I’ve played with, the catchers would get together and go over the entire offensive lineup or potential lineup, their strengths, their weaknesses, what – can they run? Do they hit and run? Are they bunters?
Before every series, I would have a stack of graphs, and they would have each hitter on the opposing team, what they did against right-handed, what they did against left-handed pitchers, what they did against curveballs and sliders against right-handed and left-handed pitchers, what they did against changeups and split-fingered fastballs against right-handed and left-handed pitchers. And this all gets condensed down into basically a sheet or a chart of strengths, weaknesses. And you use that as your cheat sheet before the game and – when you’re going over the lineup with the pitcher that day. And so this all – all this – the decisions that go on during the course of the game, this starts long before the games begin.
DAVIES: How many hours a week would you spend just doing the mental work, I mean, outside the game, just studying stuff, making graphs?
AUSMUS: Well, I would do the graphs before every series. So – and that would take me a couple hours. And then you go over each lineup on a given day, which would only take about 20 minutes. And then I would spend another 20 minutes every game that I was catching going over the chart myself and looking at that day’s opposing lineup and just giving myself a little refresher of what the strengths and weaknesses are of each player in the opposing team’s lineup.
DAVIES: I want to talk about what happens there at the plate with the umpire. I mean, you’re behind the plate. The batter’s at the back of the batter’s box. The ump is crouching over your shoulder. You’re kind of almost a unit. Can you work an umpire? And I guess one of the things you do is when a close pitch comes in, you try and frame it for the umpire and make them give it the appearance of a strike, right? And that’s something I’m told you were known for doing well.
AUSMUS: Yeah. You want to get every pitch you can. And my whole premise was, the less movement you had, the less distracted the umpire is, the more likely the umpire is to think it’s a strike. If you’re – there’s a lot of movement, he’s thinking you’re reaching for the ball. It can’t be where you wanted it. Maybe it was a ball, or sometimes just the movement of a catcher itself can distract the umpire. So my whole theory was as little movement as possible and make the ball look like it’s in the center of my body. So there was a slight shift of my upper body as I tried to catch the ball towards the center of my chest protector, in a spot where the umpire could see it. I don’t mean catch it literally on my chest protector, but directly in front of my sternum. I would try and catch it with slight shifts from side to side. No sudden movements.
DAVIES: Now, I want to talk about collisions at the plate. There are some collisions in baseball, like occasionally outfielders will collide with each other or the wall, and sometimes it happens among base runners. But the one time in baseball that a collision is intentional and accepted is when a runner is coming in from third. The catcher is waiting for a throw from a fielder, and the catcher’s got to catch that ball, make the tag on the runner. And if you block the plate, they’re allowed to plow into you, right?
AUSMUS: Yeah. Absolutely. You are free game.
DAVIES: Tell us about how that works. I mean, would you block the plate and thereby induce a collision, or would you like to give them a path so that they would slide and try and avoid the tag? How did you approach that?
AUSMUS: You know, every play at the plate can be slightly different. But going into it, this was my general approach. The ball gets hit to the outfield. There’s a runner at second base. I know there’s a possible play at the plate as soon as the ball’s hit. So I get my feet set, usually at the left – the front left corner’s where I put my left foot, and I kind of point my toe towards third base because if that runner slides into me, I don’t want to have my toe pointed towards a pitcher’s mound, and now the runner slides into the side of my knee. So I’m setting my feet ahead of time.
And as the play develops, you get a sense, by looking back and forth and through your peripheral vision, if there’s going to be a play or not. And as the throw comes in, what happens more often than not is the throw takes you to where you go ’cause you have to catch the ball and apply the tag. So you have to go where the throw is.
If it does come right to you and there’s time to catch the ball and set, then that’s probably when you’re going to get hit. The general rule as a base runner is, if you’re running towards home and the catcher is about to catch the ball or already has the ball, that’s when you want to hit him. That’s when you want to either jostle him just before he catches it or hit him hard enough where he drops it. And that’s really the only time where the contact comes into play at home plate.
DAVIES: You want to tell us one of your more memorable encounters there?
AUSMUS: I do. I – one clearly stands out above the rest. I was playing in Houston, and we were playing against the Milwaukee Brewers, and a player named Scott Podsednik was on second base. And there was a base hit to center field, where Carlos Beltran was playing, and there was going to be a play at the plate. The throw, kind of as I described, took me a little bit to my right, and I had to reach with my gloved left hand and come back towards home plate. And as I came back towards home plate, Scott Podsednik hit me on the left side of my shoulder and mask, and I was actually spun around. My helmet came flying off, and I was unconscious for about five or 10 seconds.
DAVIES: Wow. I hate to ask you this, but did you hold the ball (laughter)?
AUSMUS: You know what? Ironically, I did. I didn’t know it. I held on to the ball, and I landed face-first in the dirt. And the pitcher, who was backing up home plate in case of an overthrow, had to come over and take the ball out of my glove while I was unconscious in case the runner at first, who had had the original single, tried to advance to the next base. And Scott Podsednik, who had plowed into me and knocked me out, was actually called out.
DAVIES: Yeah. I mean, typically, the umpire just looks to see if the catcher holds on to the ball, and if he does, it’s an out, right?
AUSMUS: Yeah. Generally, that’s how it works. If there’s a collision, they’re assuming a tag was applied. And more often than not, that’s the case.
DAVIES: Brad Ausmus caught for 18 seasons in the big leagues and won three Gold Glove awards. He’s now part of the New York Yankees’ coaching staff.
Coming up, we’ll hear about managing a team from one of the best, Tony La Russa, and Hall of Fame catcher Mike Piazza tells us about getting beaned by Roger Clemens in 2000 and his tense confrontation with him in the World Series that followed. Also, John Powers reviews “Cloud,” the new psychological thriller from Japanese director Kiyoshi Kurosawa. I’m Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF THELONIOUS MONK’S “BRIGHT MISSISSIPPI”)
DAVIES: This is FRESH AIR. I’m Dave Davies. As Major League Baseball resumes following a memorable All-Star Game, we’re tapping our archives for some of our favorite baseball interviews. Tony La Russa is considered one of the smartest and most successful managers in the game. In his 33 years as skipper of the Chicago White Sox, Oakland Athletics and St. Louis Cardinals, he won three World Series titles and six league championships. He spoke with Terry Gross in 1989, and she asked him what he would say to a team after a loss.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
TONY LA RUSSA: Well, it’s a tricky thing. Talking to your players is tricky in the sense that if you have a formal meeting after every ball game that you lose, then you’re going to wear out the effect of you meeting with the team ’cause you play for six months, a hundred and sixty-two games. And if you have a great year and you win a hundred games, you’re going to lose 62. So I think you have to be very careful when – how many times you actually stand before the team and say, let’s get together ’cause I have something to say. What you do is more walk through the clubhouse. If you have a point – like last night, I thought were a little sloppy in a couple of things – you walk through the clubhouse. You say it while they’re out getting undressed, and you walk out.
The next day is always a good thing to keep in mind because after a ball game, if you’re upset, it may come out wrong. I try to watch that carefully because it’s crucial. You can go in there and make a bad situation worse, or you can do it properly. I noticed, for example, a guy that I respect a great deal, Roger Craig, who manages the Giants here. I think he’s outstanding. They had about as heartbreaking a loss as you can have on Monday night, when we were winning. And he was quoted as saying the worst thing he could’ve done was go in the clubhouse and ripped his team apart ’cause their heart was broken. They played as hard as they could. They could have played better, but they couldn’t have played harder. And that, to me, is a key thing. Terry, these guys are men, not machines. You look for effort first. And then you recognize that sometimes the execution’s not going to be there because you just can’t be perfect.
TERRY GROSS: What do you tell a player who could have played harder?
LA RUSSA: Well, that’s the one thing that you cannot tolerate. And if you make it a point of standing up before the team and saying something’s important to you, then your credibility’s at stake. So for example, in my case, very clearly, I state, effort is the No. 1 thing I look for day in and day out. So if you see somebody who shorts you the effort, not only is that person – your relationship with that person affected, but all the other teammates, they’re watching. So if somebody gets by with not running a ball out or not getting the job done because they just physically didn’t give you the effort, if you turn the other – you turn your cheek or ignore it, it’s going to have an effect on the player and the whole team.
So in effort – now, when it comes to effort, I usually treat that right now. I’ll do it right during the game. I’ll mention it. If for some reason something is distracting and – immediately after the game, usually in the privacy of my office. But if I think it’s important enough, I think you have to confront a player right in the clubhouse.
GROSS: In front of other players?
LA RUSSA: In front of other players. But that’s a drastic one. I think if you nail a guy coming off the field in front of everybody in the dugout, it’s got to be something severe.
GROSS: I want to read you something that Bill James wrote about you back in 1984 in describing you as a manager. See what you think of this. Bill James wrote, (reading) Tony La Russa’s strategy is calculated to play on the opposing team’s mind, to disrupt them. He probably does that as effectively as any other manager.
Do you think that describes you as a manager or as your strategy?
LA RUSSA: I think that’s part of it.
GROSS: But how do you do it, then? What’s an example of, you know, disrupting the opposing team’s mind?
LA RUSSA: Well, I just – you know, a lot of what I do, as far as strategy, is trying to remember when I played. So as an example of what we try to do to disrupt the other team, it’s more not necessarily to disrupt but just to keep them occupied. Last night, we were losing 3-1. The No. 2 run potentially got to base, but Walter Weiss walked in the eighth inning. Tyrone’s not bat (ph). Normally, you don’t do much with the guy on first base ’cause you don’t want to lose that runner and then lose the ability to tie the game with the guy at the plate. Well, we stole second, and then we stole third.
Now, Walter ended up scoring a sacrifice fly. It became a 3-2 game. We ended up not tying or winning that game. But the point was from now on, when we play the Yankees or anybody else that was scouting us, they’ll know, even when they’re behind, the A’s will steal. So anytime that you put the thought of the steal in their minds, No. 1, the pitcher is a little bit leary of the game. The catcher is concerned. The infielders are moving around. When a guy gets to second base, for example – and they know. I mean, it’s a steal (ph).
I think probably Bill James, a couple of years later, would have said in 1988 or ’87, the A’s led the major leagues in stealing third base. So that means when you play against the A’s and it gets to second, one of your two infielders, the second baseman or the shortstop, is going to have to shorten up and take the stolen base away. So when he does that, he opens up a hole for the hitter. And those are the kind of things I think that we try to do offensively and defensively and just give the club a lot of looks and get them concerned ’cause it’s too easy to play against us the other way.
GROSS: There’s an old saying in baseball about how – you know what I’m going to say here, that the best managers are – mediocre players usually make really good managers. And you were a mediocre player when you were in the league.
LA RUSSA: That’s the kindest thing to say.
GROSS: (Laughter).
LA RUSSA: I was worse than mediocre.
GROSS: Well, I think your batting average was 200 for…
LA RUSSA: You just gave me two points – about 198.
GROSS: Oh, 198. OK (laughter). So is there truth in that, do you think?
LA RUSSA: I think there’s some truth in it. And I’m not making any claim about what I am as a manager, but I think there’s no doubt in my mind that if you’re a scuffling-type player that had to survive, in your scuffles, you would have had to learn a lot of the pieces of the game and play them to your max amount. You were not able to neglect base running or defensive positioning or the handling of a – you know, how pitchers are handled. Sometimes, if you’re a better player, you know, if you’re an outstanding hitter or something or an outstanding pitcher, then you can just do your strength so well that pieces of it are not that necessary unless you personally make it a point to be a complete player. That, to me, is the formula.
So if I look at a star, I know a star can be an outstanding manager, but did that star have enough interest in the total game to be involved and really want to be a great base runner? So if you see a player who does it all and really loves the game, well, just being a star doesn’t mean he’s not going to be a good manager. I just – if you’re not a good player, to survive, you’re forced to learn a lot about the game. And then when you get into it, I think No. 1, you have those lessons, but No. 2, I think you do have – and here’s probably the key cog, Terry. I think you have a certain appreciation of the different ranks of players, you know? I really believe that I understand what a guy who’s struggling as a young player is trying to do, a bench player, a veteran player just coming off the peak of his years. So I’m not sure sometimes the star gets that appreciation unless he really is – people are interested.
DAVIES: Tony La Russa speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1989. La Russa retired from managing in 2022. Coming up, Hall of Fame slugger Mike Piazza remembers his very public confrontation with Hall of Fame pitcher Roger Clemens. This is FRESH AIR.
This is FRESH AIR. Mike Piazza is a guy nobody expected to make it in the Big Leagues. He was drafted in the 62nd round, mostly because his dad was friends with Los Angeles Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda. He turned out to be a 12-time All-Star who hit 427 home runs – the most ever by a catcher – earning him a spot in the Hall of Fame. He played most of his career for the Dodgers and New York Mets, in the glare of two of the nation’s largest media markets. When I spoke to him in 2013 about his memoir, “Long Shot,” I asked about his epic confrontation with the Hall of Fame pitcher.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
DAVIES: Well, we’ve got to talk about you and Roger Clemens…
MIKE PIAZZA: (Laughter).
DAVIES: …You know, the aggressive, you know, power pitching right-hander who pitched for a lot of teams. And you really crossed his path when you were at the Mets. He was playing for the Yankees. And there was this day, July of 2000, at Shea. At that point, you had done extremely well against him. In 12 appearances, I think you had seven hits, three of them homers. What happened? Could you tell us what happened?
PIAZZA: Well, yeah. Well, it was kind of interesting. I remember that day because I believe it was the day-night doubleheader. And we had actually played at Shea Stadium in the afternoon. And then the second game – because of a rainout – was rescheduled for Yankee Stadium at night. So it was kind of an interesting time because there was, like, a festival type of atmosphere in New York, and very historic. Everyone’s talking about day-night doubleheader and one game at Shea and the next game at Yankee Stadium. And I believe Doc Gooden actually beat us, ironically, at Shea Stadium, so the day didn’t start out well for us (laughter). And, you know, again, I got to the night game and my first to bat, took a pitch – strike – which I usually do at my first to bat.
And the next pitch, obviously, was right at my head and hit me in the helmet. And at the last second, I was able to put my head down and at least not get hit in the face or the eye, which I thought was very dangerous. You know, I got into the clubhouse, you know, obviously, was a little woozy. I mean, I suffered a – you know, a concussion, and then I got into the clubhouse, and then the doctor, I should say, was a Yankees doctor, and he was checking me out. And as soon as I got into the clubhouse, he said, well, Roger’s on the phone. And I said, basically…
DAVIES: Roger Clemens is calling from the…
PIAZZA: Roger Clemens wanted to call, yeah.
DAVIES: From the other dugout.
PIAZZA: And at that time, I was not in the mood to talk, so I basically told him where to put the phone (laughter). And I just was a little perplexed at that because I – as a doctor – I looked at him and I said, well, you’re here to make sure I don’t have a hemorrhage or, you know, I’m not going to die or anything. And, you know, he’s worried about being the telephone operator.
And, you know, after the game, it’s funny because, you know, everyone says I called a press conference – only because the media was – I mean, you can imagine how many media people were there. And I decided to go to the media room and just basically said I thought he did it on purpose. And that just touched off this drama, I guess, between him and I, you know, for a few years, which just took on a life of its own.
DAVIES: You know, there’s sort of an old-school baseball attitude towards this, that, you know, throwing at players is part of the game, and you take your lumps and you don’t talk about it.
PIAZZA: Yes.
DAVIES: And it always struck me that it’s one thing for a pitcher to throw at a hitter in retaliation – that’s after the other team has thrown at one of their guys, not that that’s the right thing to do. But when a guy’s had success against you, when you’ve done nothing but do your job and hit the ball…
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: …To throw at somebody’s head just seems just outside the spirit of the game.
PIAZZA: Irrational.
DAVIES: Yeah.
PIAZZA: (Laughter). No, it’s true. And you’re right. I mean, I think as a pitcher, you know as well as anybody that they do have to pitch inside. Pitching on the inside part of the play is very important. And, again, you know, I’ve been in brawls before where guys got brushed back. But I think, you know, as we’ve said, that, you know, hitting someone in the head is definitely, I feel, crossing the line and very, very dangerous.
DAVIES: Right.
PIAZZA: I mean…
DAVIES: Now, ball players get brushed back from time to time, but what – you saw this ball, the two-seam fastball coming right at your face.
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: It hits you. You’re down, had a concussion. How long did the memory of that pitch coming at your face remain vivid? Is it still?
PIAZZA: Yeah. I still see it now, believe it or not. I can – it’s one of those things that’s just seared in your memory. You just – you can never – you just never forget it. And, I mean, I’m blessed and lucky that – obviously that, you know, I was able to at least get the helmet on it. But yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things, too, where you can take a 300-pound lineman football player and a real tough guy and then put him in a cage and have the ball come at him, and he looks like, you know, a little girl, you know (laughter)?
So it’s one of those things as a hitter, it’s kind of like, I guess, a race car driver. You really can’t be conscious of getting into an accident because you will not be able to perform. So as a hitter, you never – and even after that, I mean, you can’t let it creep in your psyche because you will not be able to do your job. You cannot go back.
DAVIES: Was it hard getting back? It must have been hard getting back in the first time against big-league pitching after that.
PIAZZA: I would say it was. It definitely was. And, you know, I think my first at bat was actually against Pedro Martinez, who was another guy…
(LAUGHTER)
PIAZZA: ..Who wasn’t afraid to give you a shave. So it was – yes, you do have to discipline yourself and use every amount of your focus to block it out and get back on track because this game is not for the weak. You cannot allow yourself to be – have anxiety up there. It will not work.
DAVIES: Right. And you managed to continue hitting, playing well. And so that’s in July of 2000. And then as the plot would unfold, in October…
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: …Your team meets the Yankees in the World Series. There you are. For people that don’t remember the incident, what happens was, it’s – I think a two-strike pitch.
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: You swing, and your bat shatters into the ball. You start down the first baseline because you’re not sure where the ball is.
PIAZZA: That’s correct.
DAVIES: And then it turns out the barrel of the bat, you know, with the sharp end on it, ends up next to Clemens…
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: …On the mound. He picks it up and flings it.
PIAZZA: He actually caught it, believe it or not. Yeah.
DAVIES: In the air? Wow. Without bouncing.
PIAZZA: Like, on a hop. Yeah.
DAVIES: And then flings it in your direction.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
UNIDENTIFIED COMMENTATOR #1: The barrel of the bat comes back at Roger Clemens, and he fires the bat back toward Piazza, who was going down the first baseline.
(CHEERING)
UNIDENTIFIED COMMENTATOR #1: So Roger Clemens, in essence, throws a jagged, a pointed…
UNIDENTIFIED COMMENTATOR #2: Oh, man.
UNIDENTIFIED COMMENTATOR #1: …Sharp piece of wood that ends up – what? – two feet away from Mike Piazza.
UNIDENTIFIED COMMENTATOR #2: Yeah. Unfortunately, Piazza was looking toward Clemens when the bat was thrown over into foul territory. Had Mike had his head down running down to first baseline, he may have run right into that barrel of the bat.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
DAVIES: And then his explanation to you and the umpire is, I thought it was the ball.
PIAZZA: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
PIAZZA: Still, I mean, you know, I think back, and people today still ask me, what were you thinking? I said, I don’t know. What was he thinking? Why don’t you ask him? He thought it was the ball. Charlie Reliford, who was the umpire at the time, I believe, came up to me. And I said, Charlie, what the explicative is he talking about? He goes, I don’t know. Let’s play ball. And then all the other players came out, and then there was a little bit of a scrum, I guess, and it just never developed into anything but a lot of shouting. I mean, guys from the Yankees were telling me to get back in the box, and it just was, again, one of the most bizarre things. I’ve kind of surrendered to the fact that, you know, this is one of the most – you know, one of the highlights, I guess, for lack of a better word, of my career. And I just had to surrender and embrace the fact that people want to know about it. So I told him verbatim what I was thinking at the time.
DAVIES: Now, you and Clemens have been around each other since then, I know…
PIAZZA: Yes.
DAVIES: …And have had cordial words, I suppose.
PIAZZA: Yeah.
DAVIES: But I do want to read your description in your book. Right after you describe when he beaned you that time in July and gave you the concussion, you write, (reading) Roger Clemens has near-perfect control. I wouldn’t have batted an eye if he just brushed me off the plate. Of course, that’s what he said he was trying to do. And I wouldn’t have thought twice about it if he’d put a ball in my ribs. But to stick one in my forehead, that’s another story. Clemens had always come across to me as the playground bully, huffing and puffing and snorting and yelling at batters, doing whatever he could to intimidate them.
Sounds to me like you have a pretty firm opinion of him as a player.
PIAZZA: (Laughter) Which some words need to be kept private. No. And, you know, I’ve said many times, you know, as a player, you do have to admire, at least, competitive guys. I mean, I have always felt like in my career I’ve always wanted to face the best pitchers, the closers, the guys that were, you know, the intimidators, or so to speak. So I never shied away, and as you can tell by my stats, I always had pretty good bats against them as well. But yeah, I mean, you know, to me, it just seemed like he was very frustrated with my success. And as I’ve said before, you know, I basically said that I thought he did obviously hit me intentionally, which, as you mentioned, was, you know, one of those unbroken rules, I guess, that maybe I broke from the old-school guys, that you shouldn’t have said that. But I was very sensitive to it at the time, and understandably so. It was a very dangerous thing to do.
DAVIES: Mike Piazza recorded in 2013. Finally, we have a closing thought from veteran pitcher Jamie Moyer about ballplayers’ propensity to embrace superstition when struggling to succeed at the game.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
MOYER: Back when I was in Baltimore, if you remember the movie “Bull Durham,” and…
DAVIES: Sure.
MOYER: There was a scene in the movie when somebody gave one of the players a garter belt for good luck. And I had a buddy who sent me one of those when I was struggling and when I was with the Baltimore Orioles for good luck. And, you know, it was just one of those things that – you know, he said, all right, you know, I want you to wear this, and, you know, it’ll bring you good luck. And I’m thinking, oh, my gosh, what am I going to do with this, you know? So I thought, all right, I’ll wear it. Then I’m thinking, well, how am I going to get this on? And, you know, I didn’t want to – you know, we get dressed in the clubhouse with a bunch of guys. I’m thinking, I’m not going to pull a garter out and put it on. So I would get myself dressed, and I’d put it in my back pocket and go in the bathroom stall and pull my pants down, put the garter on…
DAVIES: (Laughter).
MOYER: …And then then pull my pants back up, and I’d go pitch with it. But I was really concerned ’cause it was purple and black. I was really concerned that you’re going to be able to see it through my white pants. So I had, you know, those long things that kind of hang down the side – kind of had to pull those up and tuck them in the waist.
DAVIES: (Laughter).
MOYER: And – you know, and off I went. But actually, the first night that I wore it, I won a game against the Red Sox. And I started to wear it religiously after – or when I pitched. And my buddy that I grew up with, Scooter Myers, at home to this day still doesn’t believe that I wore it, but I did.
DAVIES: Well, it brings up the subject of superstition, you know, and I remember a scene in “Bull Durham” where Crash Davis is talking to Annie, folks who know them. And the pitcher, Nuke LaLoosh…
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: …Who’s all over the place is not having sex and is on a winning streak.
MOYER: (Laughter).
DAVIES: And there’s a whole reason that Annie’s angry about that. But Crash Davis, the veteran catcher, says you respect a streak. And if a guy is winning – thinks he’s winning because he’s having sex or because he isn’t having sex, then he is. And this raises a question since a lot of what you’ve done is this really kind of rational focus, I mean, kind of bringing the powers of focus to the game, which is sort of at odds with, you know, some of the superstitions, you know…
MOYER: Right.
DAVIES: …That ballplayers – are you at all a superstitious guy?
MOYER: I – actually, I call it stupidstitious (ph). And, you know, guys do their things. And, you know, Wade Boggs used to eat chicken before he played, and, you know, it worked for him. And I think, you know, for some people, you know, if they feel like that helps, then, you know, let it be. But I don’t know that it really helps. You know, it’s a long season, and it can get kind of monotonous. So, you know, you kind of have fun with things, and it just kind of breaks things up at times. But no, I’m a believer that, you know, if you can focus and you have that will of concentration, your ability will take over.
DAVIES: Veteran pitcher Jamie Moyer, recorded in 2013. Coming up, John Powers reviews “Cloud,” the new psychological thriller from Japanese director Kiyoshi Kurosawa. This is FRESH AIR.
Copyright © 2025 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
This story originally appeared on NPR
